    
PRANAB (Seaexplorer)
New member
Username: Seaexplorer
Post Number: 178
Registered: 2-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 | | Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 11:18 pm: | |
hey guys ,
Not at all i am more into fishing now a days .But i thought the area where i am charting now might not be of any interst to you guys . Because its too technical and more of physics . But in case u guys want to knw wht i am doing . Here it is .
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SVS, 4x4 SVS, Mag, Magtrax, Ultra Mag, Mag ForceV, IVCB, Flying Arm, and what's next?
Right:Shimano Bantam MagCast
Most advanced brake systems
Recent high-profile casting reels are equipped with "innovative" brake systems, but manufacturer doesn't tell us the details. This topic is about brake systems, from the scientific point of view, to help you understand the difference of those NEW brake systems.
Where do we need brakes?
Brakes of casting reels has two major objectives, 1) to set the maximum spool speed and the lure speed just after line released, and 2) to control the decelerate rate to prevent birds nest. As the maximum speed is higher, it will cast longer.
In the left chart below, blue line shows the lure/spool speed in casting in an easy situation. After it reaches to the maximum speed, it decelerate slowly. On the other hand, line in red shows the casting in difficult situation, like casting Rapara Shad-Rap against winds. We have the same initial lure/spool speed, but need more brake force thereafter. Adding to those two situations, pitching and flip casting needs a different brake profile. As it has slow spool speed, the less brake force, the better. To satisfy those requirements, the best brake system should 1. have little brake at slow spool speeds, 2. can be widely adjusted at middle spool speeds, and 3. has relatively less or saturating brake force at higher speed to maximize the initial spool speed. This is shown at right picture.
Brake systems
As you know, there are two major brake systems, centrifugal and magnet systems. Those two systems will continue to dominate the reel brake systems because they are easy to manufacture, and reliable. Followings are brief explanation of those two major brake systems.
Centrifugal system utilizes the friction of brake blocks pressed inside of brake ring. The brake force is proportional to the square of spool speed. Therefore, when the spool speed is fast, brake force is much larger than when spin speed is slow. You might have noticed that centrifugal reels cast well even with slow casting speed, like pitching, and you feel that lure flies at the end of casting. This is because of the basic exponential shape and ineffective brake range near speed 0. However, you might also have noticed that even if you try harder, casting range doesn't change much. This is because the exponential brake force at higher speed strongly regulate the initial speed. Therefore, centrifugal brake basically does not satisfy two requirements at the same time, saturation at high speed and enough middle speed brake. Also, conventional centrifugal system does not have adjustability.
SVS system (Shimano) lets you change the brake profile proportional to the number of brake blocks activated. 4x4 SVS (Scorpion 1000) is the system which allow you to choose a setting from outside by sliding brake ring attached to the dial. By choosing active/inactive of 3 outer blocks, you may choose a setting finely. Both system allows us to change the brake profile up and down, but does not satisfy the two requirements at high speed and middle speed at the same time. If you activate more brakes to have more brake force at middle speed, the casting distance will be proportionally reduced. And this is the reason that centrifugal brakes are not relatively effective when you cast a lure against winds.
Centrifugal brakes are less effective at slower than some spool speed. This character is described as the flat brake force at the beginning. Lines indicate the brake force, if 1, 2, 3 or 4 brake blocks are activated respectively.
Magnet brake system utilizes the electromagnetic force, which occurs between magnets and moving metal, in this case the spool. The brake force is directly proportional to the spool speed. The brake force is proportional to the distance between magnets and spool, and the magnet brake system was the first brake system to be able to adjust the force from outside, by changing the distance through dial. It has wider adjusting range at middle speed, but has too much brake at slow speed and not good for pitching. The brake at high speed is less than centrifugal system and allow higher initial speed.
The conventional magnet brake systems were composed of a brake panel with 3-5 small magnets sitting close to spool. Recent magnet systems use inductor rotors for smoother casting. Dial changes the magnetic force between two C shaped magnets.
Because of great middle-speed adjustability, and relatively high brake force at slow speed, magnet systems are quite good for difficult casting situations like casting against winds.
*Casting control, or mechanical brake works to change the initial brake point, and have almost stable brake force regardless of speed. The stable brake force will be added, and push up the profiles of centrifugal, or magnet brakes upwards. The brake force is relatively smaller than other system at high-middle speed range, but effective at close to speed 0 where other systems don't conduct enough brake force. In skipping, lure decelerates brutally after it hits water. Casting control is the only effective brake at the situation. Tight up the cap.
Above is the cast control cap of Conquest 100. It clicks finely, and will not loose while fishing.
What's available today?
In the category of centrifugal brakes, SVS and the 4x4 SVS of Shimano are advanced to have some extent of adjustability as explained above. However, those systems haven't addressed the challenge of modifying the brake profile shape itself. The development of new brake system has been the challenge to achieve the best brake profile shape.
After the first magnet brake has been invented, several interesting modifications have been invented related to the magnet brakes. One innovation to change the brake profile was ABU's Ultra Mag brake system equipped to Ultra Mag, XLT-FL, 1021FL around 1982-1986. It achieved the saturating brake at high speed by letting brake panel move away from spool at high brake situation. The panel holding magnets were suspended by springs, and as the panel receive the brake force from spool, it slides through a guide and moves away. The adjusting dial was to set the spring tension and change the brake-saturating point.(see left picture below) The system doesn't change the brake profile at especially slow speed, and it remained as the brake profile of magnet system at slow speed.
Combination of brake systems was another trial. ABU's S3000C/T3000C (Promax) were equipped with both centrifugal and magnet brakes. By changing magnet brake dial, we could control the magnet brake force. The system could have had the advantages of centrifugal system at slow speed, and the advantages of adjustability at middle speed of magnet system. However, the magnet also adds the brake profile at the higher speed, and reduces the casting distance. It turned out at high speed, brake is dominated by centrifugal profile, and at middle-slow speed it is dominated by magnet system. Even though S3000C had 0 magnet force on dial, its brake at slow speed was too much for pitching.
Mag ForceV (Daiwa) is the first and only brake system to have the profile proportional to the cube of spool speed. It is advanced magnet brake system combined with centrifugal position control system. Before it reaches at speed S1, the rotor does not move and the system conduct little brake. At the speed between S1 and S2, the inductor rotor held by centrifugal brackets moves in and out of magnets, depending on the speed of the spool. After it reaches at S2, the rotor does not move any more, and it has the magnet brake profile, directly proportional to the speed.
MagForceV system enabled us to change the centrifugal-like brake profiles finely and widely. Adding to this, because of its steeper profiles than centrifugal brakes, it cast very well with slow speed.
The red parts pushes out the gold inductor rotor between magnets. (shown in gray) (Green/Gold Millionaire CV-Z.)
What is innovational to the Mag ForceV is the fact that it addresses the requirement at slow speed by changing the brake profile. By inserting cubic profile in the middle of magnet brake profile, it maintains the advantage of magnet brake at high speed, and achieves the little brake at slow speed and relatively wide range of adjustability at the middle speed.
This is shown by the left picture. As you max the dial, you'll have more brake at middle, but brake at high speed is still on the line of magnet profile, not exponential. Even with max, the brake at slow speed is minimal and you may pitch easily. And, if you choose the min, it will conduct little brake at middle speed, which enable long flying casting.
Flying Arm (Ryobi) and IVCB (ABU Morrum SX) are advanced centrifugal brake system, which can be adjusted from outside with non-step, continuous basis. They utilize the centrifugal forces of leverage arms connected to the spool. (black arm in the picture below) The brake profiles are the same as conventional centrifugal brakes, and has too much brake at high speed, or if you have little brake at high speed you will have more birds nest in winds.
As spool rotates, the black leverage arms (brake block) will receive centrifugal force and pushes the blue brake panel attached to the reel body. By changing the position of brake panel, the pushing force will change. When the angle of brake shoe is 45 degree, it has the max brake, and at zero degree it has no brake. Because the brake shoes are small, the brake panel should be placed accurately to make the system effective. It requires very precise design and manufacturing technologies. And, it needs to be well designed otherwise it could happen that 7 out of 15 dial settings are useless that they have too little brake.
Conclusion?
From this study, I conclude Mag Force V system of Daiwa is the most advanced brake system currently available. What makes it the most advanced is the ability to address the requirements at all speed ranges, and relatively wide adjusting range at middle speed. The Flying Arm, IVCB comes to the second, a little a head of 4x4 SVS, because of continuous adjusting range. Shimano's SVS, Conventional magnet, Combination of magnet and centrifugal will come next. Although SVS is very refined system, troubles of changing setting is a large drawbacks. If you don't cast against wind, SVS will come close to 4x4 SVS though. This conclusion doesn't immediately mean that the reel with Mag Force V is the best fishing reel. Performances of casting reels are affected by more factors, like inertia of spool, smoothness of ball bearings, stiffness of frame, weight and etc. I admit Shimano's SVS casts very well in normal conditions, and I love it. Hope this help you understand the differences of brake systems and find the best performing reel to you.
Speed:
Slow:
Middle:
High:
Comment
Requirements
little brake
widely adjusting
less brake
Objectives of requirements
Pitching, flip casting
Prevent birds nest
Long cast
Centrifugal
Great
Bad (Non-adjustable)
Fair
SVS
Great
Fair*
Fair*
Middle and high doesn't co-exist
4x4 SVS
Great
Good*
Fair*
Middle and high doesn't co-exist
Conventional magnet
Bad
Great
Good
Ultra Mag
Bad
Great
Great*
The only system addresses high speed
Combo Centri+Mag
Bad
Great
Fair(-)*
Centrifugal adds more brake at high speed.
Mag Force V
Great
Good
Good
BEST
Flying Arm, IVCB
Great
Good*
Fair*
Middle and high doesn't co-exist
Read more interesting Tackle Topics
Conventional Reels FAQ
by Brian Mulholland
It's not a matter of better, it's a matter of different. You can do most surf fishing in the Northeast with either kind of reel, but there are times and places where one or the other has an advantage. It's easier to cast small payloads with spinning reels, especially into the wind. Minnow plugs in particular are easily cast on spinning tackle but are difficult to cast into the wind on conventional reels. Spinning reels have a faster rate of retrieve, which helps if you're casting at little bluefish, or if a fish runs straight at you. And if you fish down and dirty, if you wade aggressively and your reel is dunked on every trip, the toughest spinning reels are tougher than the toughest conventional reels. The guys at Montauk who swim out to rocks and fish with reels submerged do so with spinning reels.
Heavy payloads of five ounces and more are much easier to cast on conventional reels. Conventional reels handle heavy line better than spinning reels, are more sensitive and have more torque. The drag mechanism is usually better than the drag on a spinning reel. And, since most conventional reels have a clicker, they work better with fish finder rigs than spinning reels.
Why do I need heavy line? Or more torque?
It may not matter to you. If you're fishing an open sand beach with no obstructions, light line is fine and you can let a fish run. But if you fish around a jetty, or near the pilings of a bridge, you might need to haul a fish away from an obstruction. A big fish in an inlet can use the current to stay away from you long enough for the hook to become loose in the jaw. That's when the higher torque and heavy line ability of a conventional reel is so useful. Remember, the faster you land a fish, the less wear and tear the fish has suffered by the time it is released. Long fights on light line kill fish.
Why is it easier to cast a heavy load on a conventional reel?
The drag on a spinning reel carries the load of the cast. If the drag isn't set heavily enough to hold the load during a cast, the drag will slip. Your finger gets cut and energy is lost from the cast. That's why regulars using heavy spinning tackle tape their fingertips, to save themselves from line cuts. Mono can give you a nasty cut, and braided lines are worse because they're so much thinner. On a conventional reel, the thumb holds the spool. Most casters can hold a heavier load with their thumb than the reel drag can do. For this reason, and for the use of a clicker with fish finder rigs, a conventional reel is better than a spinning reel for fishing bait.
Why can't I just screw down the drag on the spinning reel?
Repeatedly tightening and loosening the drag puts a lot of wear on soft washers. Many spinning reels use Teflon washers that are very slick but just can't be made to hold a cast with a heavy payload. Sooner or later, you'll either forget to tighten down enough for a cast, and get cut; or you won't loosen the drag enough, and a good fish will break you off. Why invite a mistake?
Aren't conventional reels hard to use?
Modern reels are a lot easier to use than old ones. There is a learning curve, but it's pretty easy. Most current conventional reels have an anti-backlash mechanism, a brake, that slows the spool as it turns over the course of a cast. This will save you a lot of grief, though you still have to use your reel hand thumb. Older reels, like the Penn Squidder, require more skill to use. There are a few modern reels without a brake, and we'll get to those.
Why is a conventional reel more sensitive? What does that mean, anyway?
Line on a spinning reel runs through a right angle turn, across the bail, to get back to the spool. The line revolves around the center axis of the spool. You can't keep a finger on the line as it comes in. Any weight or impact or change of tension has to be felt through the reel. On a conventional, you can keep a finger on the line, if you want, and there is no revolving right angle turn to muffle sensation. You'll feel more of what goes on at the end of the line. The gain in sensitivity is most apparent when fishing live bait, and when fishing jigs. This difference in geometry is also part of the reason for that superior torque mentioned above.
There is an ergonomic advantage to conventional reels. Put a spinner and a surf conventional of the same line capacity side by side. The spinner will be bigger. The conventional will fit with less stretch into your hands. This is a subtle thing, but it's real, and most anglers who fish with both kinds of tackle would probably agree. It's one of those things that grows on you with practice; the more you fish, the more you feel it.
What about the level wind? Do I need one? Does it make my cast short?
It depends on what you're doing. The level wind makes a lot of sense for fishing with lures. Without a level wind, you must spread line back and forth on the spool with your thumb. If you don't have to do that, you'll notice more about the water in front of you. The level wind saves you work. Anglers who fish live bait, or use very heavy mono, or who absolutely have to get that last yard of distance on a long cast, may prefer an open faced reel without a level wind. It's easier to get a really strong grip on the spool without a level wind in the way, so open faced reels are the tool of choice for maximum distance casting. I'd guess that 90% of all conventional surfcasting is best done with a level wind reel. They are certainly easier to use, so they ought to be preferred if you're a beginner. The loss of distance in casting is small, and the gain in convenience is substantial. It's only when the absolute maximum in distance is necessary that an open faced reel has a substantial advantage, and this is not often the case in the Northeastern U.S.
Is this just your opinion, or does everybody agree?
Of course it's my opinion. What else could it possibly be?
Don't be cranky, I'm new at this. What's the best level wind reel?
Reasonable anglers may disagree. Reels that are currently popular include the Abu 6500, 7000 and 7500; the Penn 965 and 975; the Calcutta 400 and 700. All these reels have good points and weak points. The Abu 6500 CS Mag is the standard by which casting excellence is measured. The drag is mediocre and the reel needs to be broken down for cleaning under regular use. Some anglers wish it held more line. The 7000 and 7500 reels are bigger, and arguably a better choice for bait fishing. They also like to be disassembled for regular cleaning. The Penn 975 is the most rugged of the bunch, has a much better drag than the 6500 and more line capacity, and doesn't seem to annoy anyone too much. Some anglers complain that the level wind crossbar on the smaller 965 gets in the way of the caster's thumb. The Calcutta 400 is very finely made, casts well and has an excellent drag. The tolerances to which it is made are so fine that it is easily jammed by sand. The finish is subject to corrosion, and the reel is mechanically more complex than the others. The graphite drag washers are fragile and easily damaged during disassembly and assembly. This makes it hard for the casual user to get inside for cleaning.
For detailed user reports, read backwards though the archived threads. There are posters who praise each reels mentioned. Other people swear that their reel was awful and they were happy to give it away.
What about the open faced conventionals? What are the choices?
The Abu and Calcutta reels are available without a levelwind. The Abu 6500 CT Mag and 7500 CT and Calcutta 400S have much the same strengths and weaknesses as the level wind versions. Magnetic brakes are the hot design trend of the moment, and are used in the Penn Mag GS 525 and Abu Mag 6500 reels. A Mag 7500 CT reel from Abu should appear soon.
The latest arrivals in the market are Daiwa's revised Sealine reels, the SL 20HV and SL 30 HV. The Daiwa reels have a good reputation with surfcasters in the South. They are said to cast well, and the drags are very good. The position of the gear box annoys some users, and West Coast boards show many complaints about dog failures and limited supplies of spare parts.
Mag GS reels from Penn in bigger sizes should come to market in 2001; I've been testing a prototype Mag GS 535. The GS reels have huge drags and gear trains, probably the biggest and strongest of all the reels listed. The brake on the non Mag versions of the GS reels cannot be reset without removing the sideplate.
There are also open faced conventional reels that have no brake and are totally dependent on the casters' thumb. The Newell 229 and 235 have many long time users, including myself. Current production reels are not as well made as the G reels of the recent past. The Penn Squidder is still available, but it's not as friendly as the other reels mentioned.
Are there any other reels made for conventional surfcasting?
This review is limited to reels that are either discussed at length on SOL or other boards, or which I've used myself for a few years. The Abu Morrum don't have many local users. The reel was initially introduced with SX model numbers, without the Morrum name, and then re-introduced to the market with M model numbers after some internal redesign. It's hard to tell from most posts whether the poster has an early SX or later Morrum reel. There are a few anglers surfcasting with ProGear reels, which are beautiful but which need lots of TLC to stay nice. Daiwa has several new Millionaire baitcasters on the market. At least one of the new Millionaires has a sideplate that screws directly into machined threads on the frame. Just a little bit of corrosion on those threads, and you'd have the devil's own time getting the reel open for cleaning and repair, so someone else can test that baby and report back. The Fin-Nor baitcasters are also new on the market.
All the reels made with highly machined aluminum frames, the Shimano Calcutta and Trinidad, Morrum, ProGear, Millionaire and Fin-Nor baitcasters have very fine mechanical tolerances. This makes them sensitive to sand ingestion. Corrosion will be more visible than on the Newell and Penn reels.
What reels have you actually used?
Newell G229, Penn GS 525 (not the Mag version) Penn GS 535 Mag prototype, Penn 980 Magforce and Calcutta 400. Right now the GS 525 is my main reel. The spool takes 300 yards of fifty pound test Whiplash. My dream surf fish is a tuna in the surf, and this reel has enough drag to use that Whiplash and give me a fighting chance.
Do you really need all that line and a huge drag?
Only to catch the fish of my dreams.
Any advice on casting, and on what to buy?
Tim can sell you a nice reel and rod, email him and ask. Support your teachers. The surf business doesn't offer a lot of profit, so large chain stores won't have anyone on staff who is a surfcaster, and they don't carry the best surf rods. Good advice and good tackle comes from small stores and Internet shops that are semi-specialized in surf fishing, or are owned by a surfcaster.
The easy way to successful conventional casting is to take it easy. Ninety percent of backlashes happen because the caster is trying too hard for that last yard of distance. Fill your reel with 15-20 lb. mono for your initial experience and go fishing.
Relax. Keep the first few casts short. Mono absorbs water and becomes more pliable as it does, and this makes it easier to use. Get the line used to the water and your thumb used to the line. Make a couple of short casts each time you change lure weights to retune your thumb; the casting process involves feedback. Thumb the reel to stop rotation just before splashdown. If a fluff starts to happen during the cast, apply a bit more thumb pressure and slow the reel. If it's still there, take your time and pick it out. Most small backlashes dissolve with a little work. Do not try to yank it free, you're more likely to bury the problem deeper into the spool. Braided line is harder to pick out of a mess, especially at night, and that's why you should start with mono.
Have fun!
I KNOW ITS QUITE BORING TO LOT OF YOU GUYS BUT THT IS WHAT I AM DOING NOW AND SAVING EVERY DAY 20 DIRHAMS TO GET A SYSTEM LIKE THIS .
I KNW MY BUDDY LIKE KEYUR SAYS I AM CRAZY SO DOES CHUA WITH WHOM I MEET ALMOST ON A DAY TO BASIS TO LEARN MORE ABOUT ROD AND REEL MECHANISM .
CHUA SAYS SHALL WE PUT A ROD AND REEL MANUFACTURING FACTORY IN DUBAI HA HA . BUT YOU KNW WHAT WHEN THE FISH HAS GONE IN DEEP WATERS I THINK TO TALK ABOUT FISHING MAKES SENCE . IT MUCH BETTER THAN DRINKING OR CHASING RUSSIAN BABES HA HA . BOTH THESE HOBBIES BURNS POCKETS . TALKING ABOUT FISHIND WONT . IT ENRICHES YOUR FISHING KNOWLEDGE .
AND GUESS WHAT WHEN YOU HAVE THE LIKES OF CHUA AND KIT AT OUR DISPOSAL ADDED WITH OUR GURUJIS IMMENSE 20 YRS EXPERINCE WHY NOT .
AFTER ALL THESE GUYS ARE TOO GOOD AND THEY DONT CHARGE U TO FISHING KNOWLEDGE .
I AM SURE IF THEY WERE BORN IN USA THEY WOULD HV DONE THAT FOR SURE .
HAPPYING FISHING DREAMS |
